Year 3 of growing a subscription business
Ditching Hourly · January 21, 2026 · 58 min
Transcript84 sections · auto-generated, so expect the odd wrong word
Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today I am rejoined by repeat offender Zack Stevens. Zach, welcome back. >> Hey Jonathan, triple threat. >> Yes, [laughter] this is like our uh annual How's Zach's Business Going review. We're we're a little late. It's January 2026, but you came on in 2023 and fall of 2024, and we'll call this one uh fall/inter of 2025. There we go. And yeah, so you reached out over email and said um you know I I guess I had posed some questions last time that you have answers to now that were maybe a little tricky too tricky to do on the fly and yeah and just see where the business is going. So if you could start off by telling folks a little bit about
who you are and what you do and why your business is so interesting or potentially interesting to our listeners. >> Sweet. I'm Zach. I am the one of the co-founders at Conversion Factory. We're a marketing team in a box. So copywriting, design and webdev all in one under all under one roof and we help software companies uh you know build their marketing engine and turn traffic into revenue without having to add on additional staff or additional stress. We project manage everything and get you not only from ideas that a marketer could come up with but then actually implement a lot of things that help boost your customer acquisition. And the first reason that I came on was because my agency I think within it was like 3
months we were it was just me and two other co-founders and we were doing $36,000 a month um within three months of launching. >> Uh the second time around was because I had a year's worth of then running a shop like that under my belt. Um and now uh the reason that we are speaking is because you had posed some questions over email which is what are you excited about for next year and you know this is back in 2025 but now it being 2026 >> and I said well conversion factory had its first six-figure month in December which is freaking nuts. I didn't think that wasn't sure that would happen with I'm sure it would happen eventually wasn't sure it would happen so quick. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Um and now we have a team of 12. So, I
was going to speak about what does it look like transitioning from being, you know, I was a solo business owner from 2017 until 2023 and then it was just me and three co-founders. Now, we have a team. So, understanding what that transition looks like. Um, what does it feel like to do uh six figures in one month? And then also answering the last question you posed to me, which was why is the subscription model a good thing for soloists, which I didn't have great answers for, >> but now I think I do. >> Okay, cool. So, I don't know how like you just mentioned it, but I don't know how explicit uh it is to the listener that you guys are a subscription business model. >> Yes. >> So, that's that's the thing that's
really novel because otherwise, you know, you could be a billing by the hour kind of agency that does marketing stuff for SAS, but your your positioning is like laser focused. You know, it's right in the name and and and you actually and it just rolled off your tongue, too. you were like turn traffic into money or it just like rolled right off your tongue and and the subscription model makes it really easy for clients to kind of like engage. It's like easy to get your head around. There's no like sales call at the beginning. It's like swipe your credit card and let's go. I'm oversimplifying it, I'm sure, but um it's like hot and cold running marketing. Just like turn the spigot and here it comes. which is a model that a
few people in Ditcherville use uh with great success. You know, if you want to be doing the work, it is a fantastic stable model. And I know, you know, people that didn't scale up headcountwise that are just maxed out, just over capacity, sold out. It's like, well, raise your prices. Um, but okay, so with all that said, sort of like my cheerleading for the subscription model. Let's start here. you know, six figure month, very impressive, but you're it's not two people or three people anymore, it's 12 people. So, >> right, >> is that strategically? What was the decision to start hiring or how did that whole process happen? >> Yeah. Well, you hit a good point of you have two options when you're running
this subscription model. You can raise your prices and that's not a bad means of going about doing this if you want to do the work. I think that me and my co-founders were in a position where we we have a set amount of things that we do really really well and we could keep doing them, but it got kind of I don't want to say boring because the the projects do individualize quite a bit between them, but we were more interested in building something that could scale and being like I have this vision of being kind of like the the Chick-fil-A for marketing, which is, you know, it's not not quite the, you know, like catering that you get for your wedding, but it's very accessible. and it's still a premium brand and it's very
simple, you know, like you you show they they serve chicken. It doesn't really deviate that much and we wanted to try our hand at building something that was scalable in addition to the fact that we also in hiring out some help because um I had my first kid in 2024 which was a big reason why we started adding on additional hands um and we we found the love of delegation. I was like, "This is great." You know, I can I can give direction to somebody. I can coach them and when I come back from doing big heavier thinking or planning out where we want to go next and doing some more marketing initiatives for ourselves, then the client work gets done and we found that to be a greater sense of fulfillment
than getting in and doing the work ourselves. >> Right. Okay. So the the the project of working on the business became more interesting than the the craft doing the activities of your craft. >> Exactly. >> So as many people know I'm not a fan of hiring. I'm not against it for other people. Um but I don't talk about it that much. I never talk about leadership things or develop employee development or anything like that because I have [snorts] almost no experience with it. I've had I've managed employees and it wasn't for me. So what can you say to the people in the audience who uh aren't allergic to employees the way I am? First I think the it'd be interesting to talk to the extent that you can talk
about the compensation model for the employees given that you're subscription shop. So are they W2s or are they contractors? Is it a rotating cast of characters or do you have like like a specific So like this is the team right now. Now, we have so all of our employees are like they're from all over the world. So, my two main designers that I work with, one's in Brazil and one is in Colombia, and we just brought in another full-time one from Macedonia. So, we have them going on a monthly basis where they have a set fee. They know what they are supposed to be working on. And the way that we gauge it is we tell them, do you have a lot of ownership over this and a lot of freedom? I'm like, you know, my designer
in Brazil repeatedly tells me he's like, I typically work six hours a day and then I'm I'm home free after that. And it's usually he's up before I am because I'm on the West Coast. It's like he's done. And then he goes home and he's compensate. He's in like the top 1% of his country now because of the wage we're able to pay him, which is a good means for us because it's high quality work and now he's rich. So it it's a fantastic trade-off. Um, so the compensation model is on a month-to-month basis. We do have our core group that we use with between copy design and webdev. Um, and now we're trying to get that vetted bench built out for if we do have to scale up or we don't have to bring somebody on with the
anticipation of it being full-time, but we have someone who we could reach out to. and then growing those core designers to be creative directors or you know if they're marketers having them become marketing strategists >> and do what we've done which is duplicate ourselves like I have two mini me that understand my my design philosophies and my best practices to the point where they're even using my pull string phrases with clients like hey so and so please take a look at this design file and this overview video let me know if we missed the mark anywhere verbatim Mhm. >> That's awesome. You're doing exactly the way that I would. [laughter] >> Yes. >> All right. How much So, I'm I'm going to
poke holes in some things, so bear with me. Uh, how much training goes into getting someone to that point? You know, may maybe not to that point, but getting someone productive and what's that onboarding look like? [snorts] >> Um, there's got to be they must be getting paid to onboard, but are they actually doing client work? Are they are they profitable? How long does it take to get to profitability? How long do they stick around? What do they leave with all that training and copy you and do the same business model? >> So, I'll answer the I'll answer the first question or the last question you gave, which was do they leave? And the answer is no. They they don't leave. Um Andre, my the first designer that we
hired has been with us since August of 2024. >> Mh. >> And it is it's a decent amount of training. The cool thing about training is that you do it once, record yourself on Loom doing it, and you build out an SOP playbook over time with that first person. The book that I've been reading as I was doing this was a book called Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell, >> right? >> Yeah. Great book. And every time that I kind of hit this pain line, I was like, what needs to change? And at the time it was, we have too many clients. I'm a new father. I'm sleepd deprived. I'm like at 50% capacity right now. There's no way I'm going to be able to perform to do this. So, I need hands to like help me with this stuff,
>> right? >> And I could get hands. It was having them see design the way that I did where it's like design is subservient of marketing and we have to build website pages that work for our development team. It can't just be whatever we want to create and design. We work within these systems. So it uncovered a lot of systemization within my process that I was unable to codify and give to other designers as they as they came in >> and it still happens like you know you uncover just a nuance to you know client throws a curveball at them you're like oh this is how I would respond to that because I've done it for almost 10 years now being on my own. Um, so that's the first question, right? They they they
don't leave. >> They don't leave. >> No. What does it look like to And granted, like I said, we're paying them >> good amount of money. Yeah. They're rich. It's I mean, compared to US rates, it's it's quite low. >> And that's the cool thing about the the world that we live in now is they have access to the same internet you do. And they're just as talented and capable and smart. The only thing they've got you beat on is they have a cool accent, you don't. At least that's the way I thought of it for myself. >> I've heard horror stories about um cultural differences around communication skills of course and time zone if they're dealing directly with clients and also um uh for lack of better term like a more relaxed work
ethic. So, I don't know if that, you know, I I'm kind of interrupting my other monolithic question that you were working your way through, but um it doesn't sound like you've encountered too much of any of those things. >> Some of it is like for example um we had a teammate who would always ask the question, "Hey, how's it going?" on their Loom videos, like when they first started or they'd put that in at the beginning of responding to a client. Everything else after that totally coherent and fine, well-written English. And I said, "Hey, don't start your videos with this question because you're asking a question that you're not going to get an answer to. So, >> be more direct." And and that's fine,
you know, like we we coach through that. And a small small pain point to have for the amount of time I'm getting back, not having to go and claim. >> Yeah, that's tiny. >> And we and we do a lot of training. I think Andre, the first designer we hired, was doing stuff u behind closed doors where I was still interfacing with the clients and because we were just testing this out like you know how is this going to go? Can I even do this? >> And u he was doing stuff for six six or seven months before I said yeah go ahead like talk to the clients. You know what I would say in certain situations obviously there's going to be some things you can't answer and that's okay. you know, then you escalate it to me.
Most of the design, delivery, and feedback you should be able to take one-on-one, though. >> Okay, cool. But that was after six months of of you guys working together. You had built up trust and he was familiar with things and Okay. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So, I don't want to jump around too much. I'll try and ask shorter questions. [laughter] Just to give folks a who are considering scaling up with hands, how do you find the talent and vet them? I we had a couple different means. Um there's obviously companies like uh somewhere which is formerly support sheepard which charges a quite a hefty penny for getting their help. I think it's like seven or $8,000 just to get the the role landed. Um we used a
specifically for creative talent, we used a company called Remote Growth Partners. Um, shout out Jason for having us helping us find our designers, which was fantastic. I think I got very lucky because Andre was very easy to work with, whereas if I had a, you know, a bad first hire, it might have left a really sour taste in my mouth, right? >> Um, but Andre has been fantastic and Jason's team helped us find them. That's Remote Growth Partners. We also did some other stuff through job rack. I mean, there's a bunch of companies out there that do this for things specific to something like Web Flow. We used uh flow remote which is a just a more specialized kind of job posting for specifically for web flow developers. So
it's out there. I mean just freaking Google it or GBT it. You'll find >> something I'm sure that will help you source the talent and then they check for things like their English competency. Um it's one of the requirements they have to send a Loom video showing their communication skills. Um so they cover a lot of that which is really nice. Yeah, that's hard for people. I know people who are still using Upwork for things and it's hard, you know, it's Upwork's so big that it's almost like you're like, am I talking to a real person here or like >> Yeah, >> they want to turn their camera on. And >> that was a big like so we included in our descriptions like you must send a video. Your camera must be on. Like if
you're going to do this, we need to make sure that you can eventually communicate with clients >> and you have to send this video. It's a non-negotiable. That's a cool filter because if I don't send the video, no, I don't care how good your portfolio is, you can't follow instructions. >> So, you're out at that point. >> And did you have when you're looking for a role, do you typically have like a ton of people to sift through or is it a uh not that many? >> Well, for for the design hires, that's where we had the recruiting partner, remote growth partners for. >> So, they narrowed it down to like, you know, their top five and then I got to watch their Loom videos. I got to see their Figma files go in and see is there
enough raw material here for me to shape into somebody that can work with conversion factory >> or not. And then I would jump on interviews and some of the interviews didn't go really well and that's okay. It's [laughter] no different than a sales interview talking to a prospective client. You're talking to a prospective hireer. Some of them are going to be really great and some are going to really suck. >> Yeah. >> And then you find the ones that are good. And if it's I mean I don't know what I was doing the first time. I I think I lucked out with Andre. >> I think that it's just like any other skill. You develop a a sense of what's going to be a good fit, what's not, what are some things that I know now that I
didn't know previously when I was hiring that I would look for on this one or like buying a house. >> Yeah. >> Like what would I I just bought a house. Great. Uh there's so many things about this house that I dislike. How do I change that? Mhm. So other than maybe using a partner like remote growth partners, what are some of those things that you learned for people to maybe not have to learn the hard way in terms of >> Uhhuh. Um I think making sure that you know uh what you want that person to do like if you are expecting them to go speak with clients and do web flow development, they need to you need to understand that they have to fulfill both of those. It can't be a, you know, well, they're really good at web flow
or, you know, but they're really good at they're not really good at this. Like, it doesn't matter. The thing you need is time back. And if you can't get the whole picture, just wait. Like, keep going until you find the one who is going to be a good fit because it's not worth it to hire incorrectly, even with us, you know, because everybody was on a contractor basis. There was no penalties if we let them go afterward. And it still could have been really annoying to have to just go go through that. Or even with people that were really good Web Flowful developers, we ran into an issue where it's like they can't talk to clients yet, but they've done such a good job for us that now we're investing
to buy them things like, you know, pronunciation courses and, you know, better equipment for their >> for recording videos and microphones. So I think understanding the totality of the responsibilities that this person could undertake >> is important. >> Okay. So be patient and wait for the perfect fit basically. >> That's great advice actually. Um you mentioned that that u one of the newer people like is done before you wake up. So do you have any time zone issues or like what if they're starting to it it can't be totally asynchronous if they're client facing. So how does that work? >> Well, he's not done before I wake up. He's he's already like halfway through his workday by the time I get up.
>> And that's actually not true. I'm up quite early. I'm up at like 4:30 or 5, but I'm not at my computer. I'm doing jiu-jitsu and other stuff that I like to do because I have employees that can work on other stuff. [laughter] >> Okay, that's fair. >> Yeah, I met I would meet with him when he first started. I would meet with him two day two days a week and that was to really get him up to speed and coach and say, "This is what I expect. Um, this this hit the mark. This did not. This went well. This did not." Um, and that was, you know, all through the training. And then he ended up becoming more like me and by by virtue of osmosis and being around me. So there's no time zone issues. The only thing that is sometimes
bothersome is we'll have clients that won't respond until like 5:30, 5:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. >> Even though our team responded really early and then the clients just don't get back to it. So that can lead to some of a somewhat of a gap, but then they're up early again the next day and they get right to it and respond. So as long as you're able to keep this, you know, 12-hour response time within 24 hours, most people don't notice. >> And and it is all you're not having meetings anyway. It's all asynchronous like videos and >> Yeah. with the exception of a couple different like I meet with the design team once a week to but it's not even really for it's because they're managing 12 different clients and or you know or
more >> um and I'm checking in on them personally like hey how's your mom I know she was sick are you are you doing okay and being it's more team oriented it's not always about the work because the work is quite easy for for us we're really good at it >> I'm more interested in their personal development of like well what what's next for you know, how do you want to be a better designer in 2026? And checking in on that more more frequently as opposed to, hey, you got to move these pixels this way. I could do that over Loom asynchronously. >> Right. But when we say client facing when I was talking about time zones, uh they're not having client meetings, right? They're >> no the the only time they have client
meetings are when we do foundational workshops. So, if we're doing a brand strategy workshop, then I will meet with the client and I'll have the other designers come with me. That's about an hour. Um, or if we're doing a sitemap workshop for information architecture or a positioning workshop with the marketing team, then we'll get other people on board. >> Okay. >> But they have no issue. They usually work US hours and they're happy to do so because again, we're paying them at the top 1% of their wages. >> Right. Right. Okay. Okay. So, let's switch over to um the client side a little bit more. [snorts] Uh are I don't remember the numbers. What what has been the the sort of if you can share that
the client count growth like when you were getting really busy, how many clients was that you know when in 2024? >> Uh well 2024 wasn't I think that it wasn't the heaviest that we actually had as far as client load. Um, I think our high in 2024, we hadn't yet cracked that uh $83,3334, which is the the amount you need per month to hit a million dollars a year for those who don't know. It's kind of [laughter] a a it's a well-known number within SAS. We have socks that have that number on it that get a lot of a lot of kicks. Um, >> okay. >> But I think let's see in >> Well, how do you even think of it? Is it like a per employee? Is that more important? >> Yeah. So the the goal is that the that one designer I'm just going to speak
from the design team's perspective because the same thing trans translates to marketing and webdev. >> Um the sweet spot is between five and seven or eight clients like between five and eight. Um, and if we start hitting that point where, you know, I have two full-time designers and both of them have eight tasks, each or eight clients that they are working with, >> then it's a signal to us that we are going to need some additional help because if we take on another client, they're going to be strapped and not be able to produce. So, the numbers work out um on that basis where we know that a at a minimum we should be able to get five clients worked on. And I'm still coming in too and doing stuff like, you
know, creative direction and approving things. If it's if it's logo design, I'm still coming in and doing finishing touches and being the last person to see the plate before it goes to the table >> type of deal, >> right? >> Okay. So, have do you when you're getting to that point where it's like, geez, we might need to bring on a couple of more people because you'd need to bring him on in like each department. I guess the work is it's a little must slush around a little bit like you don't always need one person from each department, right? >> No. And it it depends. So copywriting the marketing team can use AI a lot more effectively than the design team can because I mean my my co-founder just put
out today a it's like a cloud code thing for marketers and it's already up like I think 15,000 likes or something like that on Twitter. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um, so they're able to use AI a lot more. Like the the impact that one copywriter can have across, you know, all their their work is, you know, they can essentially be a creative director and have AI come in and help them quite a bit. Whereas design, it's not, and I think I said this the past two times I was on, it's [snorts] not there yet. [laughter] >> Yeah, >> it's it's helpful. We have a we use AI for quite a bit. It's just it doesn't complete the job fully. So design is a little design has the most variance between intensity of project. Like
>> it could be a I need business cards designed. Great. 20 minutes, no problem. Here you go. You're fantastic. You're not going to have any revisions apart from maybe getting the right phone number on there. And then it could be something like I need an entire homepage redesigned and we don't have a creative direction yet. We don't even know what our type faces are going to be or colors or anything like that. So, we're starting from a lot of creative mess there. >> It's all I think it's usually based on feel because especially once we're past a lot of the initial phases of getting a client from zero to one >> then the work becomes a lot easier. But if we have a lot of zero to one projects then I think at that point if we before
hiring I would probably come in and help and you know I I could take on these two don't worry about it. I've got enough I've got enough time. Um, it's and then asking the team, "How are you doing? How's your workload? Do you feel okay? Are you overwhelmed?" And today I had both my designers say, "I'm good. [snorts] I feel really good." Like, I'm I'm kind of in a dead zone actually right now. Do you have anything else that I could work on? >> Cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So, let's jump back a little bit to the um the way that for people who haven't listened to previous episodes, how are these sort of um I don't want to say tickets, but like when a request comes in, how does that work? And you described two vastly different
scopes of work between the business card and the brand new homepage for a brand new client that you don't have any, you know, there's it's all squishy still. You don't have any definition around what they actually want. if the existing website they hate it and there's nothing else to look at or it's a new company. >> So how does that how do you manage the expectations around that? Uh with someone who sends in a request for like yeah we need a brand new home page from scratch. >> I tell them say okay here are your options. Uh we have a a framework that we use called ARO not to be confused with ARO speedwagon but it stands for revolution evolution or optimization. And this applies to some of the
foundational things that we we do. So a revolution would like in the context of design is we're turning everything on its head. Even the name of the company is potentially on the line because you have no brand no brand equity and it's essentially a blank slate. You know, there's there's a whole lot of things that we could do to make this awesome. >> And I have a video going over this that I've recorded that breaks down these three options and the trade-offs that go between them. >> And I have the client pick. I say, "I think that you should be doing it." You know, I'll pick pick which one I think is going to be the best fit for them. I say, "How does it sound to you?" In addition to what you just heard, and I
lay out, this is how long a revolution should take. This is how long an evolution should take. And this an optimization is us essentially just refining what's already there. There there's no not a lot of groundwork to lay. It's more about the execution that needs to change. >> And but how does this fit into the subscription model? Like if they can have like >> I see. Yeah. >> Um, we the it's okay to use sentence enhancers on the show, right? >> Sence enhancers. >> Um, our rule of thumb is when it comes when it comes to tasks and the atomization of them. Don't be a dick about it. Like because there's we're not going to have like a freaking table like this is how many like you know social posts we can do. It's like, okay, you
need a bunch of graphics for um for Twitter, like you're or or Google, you're running a set of ads. >> I know that we can do 10 in a batch and that's going to be a good amount. Like that's that's worked in the past >> and that counts as like one request or something. >> It's one request. Okay. or we'll try and if it's the things that are a little bit more bulky like for example if we're doing feature pages feature pages follow a little bit more of a templated format and we have things we know are best practice it might vary a little bit between clients but our first step in that is let's create a template for copy and then once we get the template done we'll use one as a sample we can write out the framework that we're going to
use on that page and then copy can batch the remaining three to four other feature pages that are going to go in there and they just work on those in at one time. After we've got the the foundation set and we do the same thing for design copy passes this over to design that becomes one task where design creates a page template for a feature page. Once we have the template agreed upon then we can fill in everything else because we're replacing graphics and content and icons and you know reskinning what should be a very similar layout across the page. >> Okay. And then and then the dev team has it the has it even easier because I mean they're you know uploading things and content at an even faster rate. So we
batch as much as we can. It's essentially whenever there's something net new or that requires a different skill set then we split it and that's for two two different reasons. Net new creative is it's totally new. We just want to start from a a blank slate and then we want to keep the feedback siloed as best we can. like you are getting feedback on the copy. That's it. >> And we are just going to work on the copy because the words that you say are the most important thing on any kind of deliverable that we provide for you. >> Y >> design supports the marketing and that's why we only want you to give feedback on design like you were focusing on this right now and then we are going to approve that. Once that's done then dev
should have should only be able to focus on technically implementing this and then we're good. >> Okay. So, so just paint the picture for me. So, a co a client, new client, first thing they throw in there is like a new homepage, please. And you say, "Okay, we're going to this is a project. Basically, we're going to break it into a bunch of subtasks." And then, [snorts] uh, and all of the back and forth for something like that is done asynchronously or >> all of it. >> Wow, [snorts] that sounds frustrating to the client. Sounds like for clients would get frustrated with that. But is that not the case? >> Well, some of them aren't cut out for it and [laughter] >> clients have a choice. Exactly.
>> Yeah. We and we make it a point. We say, "Look, we we don't do meetings on the fly. We're not going to we send very detailed Loom videos and our explanations of why we did things. If that is not going to work for you, then we're not a good fit." >> And that's cool. >> That's okay, >> right? Um Okay. So when but if you send a loom video I guess I don't know I'm curious about this. I'm not sure if it's a waste of time for the listener. That's that's why I'm hesitating. [snorts] Um but it sounds impossible is is where I'm getting at. But it's not impossible because you're doing it. So do I need to go into the details or have ask you to drag you into the details? We're probably at a level of detail that's
overkill. And if I dug any deeper, it would just be more overkill because basically what we're saying is it is possible and you have to figure it out. And if that means only working with certain kinds of clients, which I love, then that's the way it works. So find your own way, do it your own way. U but the key I think a key piece to the model though is that there are no phone calls. If you had phone calls, that would be typically that is a monster time suck. [snorts] >> Oh yeah. Well, there's a it's a time suck just on the calendar and then also your productivity afterward. Everybody thinks that like I'm gonna jump in this meeting and then right after I'm gonna jump in and, you know, get to deep work
and you're going to have a half hour gap. >> Yeah. >> At least trying to get your head back into the space where you're going to go in and do some something really impactful. >> You're fooling yourself if you think that's not the case. I've always thought, you know, if we were to run this subscription, and I haven't put the numbers out there because I haven't thought of it, but let's say if you wanted to have one call a week, we'd probably tack on an additional five $7,000 to our price tag. [laughter] If you you want to call, it's going to cost you. >> Yeah. Right. But I mean, I agree with you. I think I'm super anti-phone call. >> [snorts] >> uh they're incredibly inefficient and they are um especially in a I mean this
isn't the the case here but like in an employee employer situation when the employer wants to always jump on a call I guess it's the same with a client if they always want to jump on a call uh a lot of times it's because they haven't taken the time to actually figure out what their question is or what they want and so they just brainstorm it live and then you're just listening to and then finally at the end of 45 minutes you finally understand what they're asking you and it's like it should have in an email or something. >> You're [snorts] speaking about my origin story for not wanting to do this anymore at the client calls. We had somebody who I wrote out a response like and said because they had some questions and I
wrote it out and they said, "We feel like we really need a call." [snorts] Okay, fine. Like I'll I'll get on the call. >> And I got on the call and they asked me the same questions and I gave the same answers that I wrote down. >> Yeah. >> Exact same to the word because I read it off of this. And then when we got when I was done saying what I was repeating, I said, "Do you realize that I just said everything that I wrote?" [laughter] And like, "Uh, yeah." So, please don't waste my time again with these calls. They're no longer a client. Not a good fit. Right. And now when we're on sales calls, I have like a five I have five working criteria for conversion factory. One of them is we don't do calls except
for these things which we have predetermined warrant a call. >> We send Loom videos. We do comments in notion. We do comments in Figma. That's it. How does it sound to you? And I get them to agree to it on the call. And that's been a super effective means of setting expectations. I >> I know. So I have a there's a book called The Superstruct Manifesto by David Gutman. And he has a chapter on [clears throat] how bad daily stand-ups are for developer productivity [snorts] because he says it's like, you know, it's like you're going down to the bottom of the ocean to dig a trench and you got to get the gear on and jump out of the boat and get all the way down there and finally you're productive and
then someone pulls on the rope and it's like, "Oh, could I just talk to you for a second?" you got to go all the way back up, take off all your gear, and then, you know, they ask you something that could have been an email or wasn't urgent or whatever. And he's got a whole framework for dealing with it, too. So, folks want to check out that book, you probably >> I love that analogy. That's great. Yeah, >> it's a nice It's a good nice short book. It's good. Um, okay. So, so I think the big takeaway here is being really choosy with clients. So, like if people are listening and they're like, "Oh, that would never work with my clients." You're probably right. It probably wouldn't. That doesn't mean there are no
clients that it would work for. >> I think it depends because so we and you'd be really surprised at the people that do this. Like we had one of our clients was $55 million short of a billion dollars last year. >> Okay? >> Like huge. I'm talking like they own a freaking basketball stadium and [laughter] we worked with them for just shy of a year and they were paying us they they wanted more. We offer one first, second and third floor. They wanted a fifth floor to keep working with us and get more done. >> Mhm. >> Everything async and they were totally fine with it. They liked it. >> So, >> wow. It's not like you're limiting yourself based on um like that criteria for working with you, >> right?
>> And if that's the way you like to work, it's the way I like to work. >> Me too. >> Then >> yeah, and I think most really impactful and productive people want that time for themselves. >> I need to make stuff. >> I'm thinking, don't interrupt my thinking because this is where the magic happens, >> right? So, there are clients out there that are very wealthy that will pay you for this and they don't require a call. >> Yes, excellent point. I'm glad you shared that anecdote. Um, yeah, there's weirdos like us out there. Clients [laughter] who don't want to jump on a phone call either. I had it was never a big deal for me with client work because well, for whatever reason, it just was never abused.
>> I would jump on a call, but I always worked with really highlevel executives and they were busy and they had no reason to call me. So, never was a problem. Uh, but I remember one that was explicitly like, I don't want any developers interrupted ever. Never interrupt the developers. I was like, wow, right, sweet. We're on the same page there. >> Cuz I feel the same way. It's like you have one phone call, it's like, and you know what's coming. It's 10:30 and you know you have a call at at 11. Are you going to start something? No. You're going to check your email or check your phone and then or whatever. Get a snack and then you're going to get on the meeting. It nukes the probably at least a half an hour on both sides of the
meeting. >> Exactly. Yeah. So it's I mean we could go that's an entire rabbit hole of productivity and of itself. Just ask Cal Newport, >> right? See Cal Newport. [snorts] >> Um all right. So let's let's Cal can take it from there. Take it from here. >> Um let's jump back to AI which you touched on a little bit. So obviously it sounds like the the copywriting arm of the business is heavil using it heavily [snorts] are even inside of that how do those folks use it in a way that is that you that you think it is ready for prime time unlike design which you don't think it's ready so it is ready but is it it can't be great at everything like what are what are the ways that copy the copyright department if you will is
using AI productively >> uh I can't answer this as thoroughly as I'm sure you would like to because it's that's not my department. That's my co-founder Corey's team. >> Okay. >> Let me try. And Corey, if you end up listening to this, sorry if I [laughter] >> We'll do a followup. >> Don't do it. Well, um well, think about what um even something like chat GBT like what is chat GBT really really good at? Language. It's a large language model. >> That's what it is par excelon at. So if you can if you can give it you know your custom GPTs and say this is my homepage GPT that I have like and Corey's done this he's curated all these different homepages that we have made for clients that it's able to pull in
all that data. It can now write like we would on those homepages or a feature page or pricing page >> based on that client. Uh and it does really well because it's spitting out words. the deliverable for that team is words. >> Yeah. >> It's not like a webpage design or webpage build, although they're it's funny. I feel like design's the one that's not really up for the task right now, but webdev is slowly catching up. Uh and you know, with cursor new updates that I haven't gotten to play with yet, um I think there's a lot of things that could be done on the webdev side. >> But as far as copyrightiting goes, it's because the the deliverables words and it literally gives you words. Yeah, that you can then work with and change or
sometimes deliver. >> Yeah, it's the sweet spot for for an LLM obviously. So, what does that mean for you do you think in the future? So, like because I've seen some sick stuff like actual developers but who vibe coded some really sick stuff and [snorts] it's if it's not there it's pretty close to to like yeah >> very good. >> Cory Doto would disagree. He thinks it's like it's like digital asbestous and you know our the next generation is going to spend their entire lives cleaning it out of the walls. But I don't know if that's true and um what would that I mean I suppose the answer is obvious. But what would that mean for you guys? Would you adopt that? Sounds like copy Cory has in the copy side of the house. Would you
[clears throat] be like all in on that? >> Of course. Like if if we found that the tool was able to hit our standards and helped us achieve it at a faster rate because like you know you're a musician so you know what happened when the synthesizer was introduced Yeah. >> to music. >> Didn't ruin music. >> It didn't ruin music. What happened when the guitar went electric? You know it didn't ruin music. It gave people like Hrix and Stevie Rayvon and Jimmy Paige another tool or another arrow in their quiver to perhaps do some things they couldn't have done before. like the edge, you know, where like his entire repertoire and sound is not based on killer solos. It's based on overuse of effects and particularly dialing them in
>> new pallet, right? And yeah, even even sampling, which people drum machines, oh my god, the the pearl collection when drum machines came out, but [snorts] whatever. They they just they didn't really replace anything. They're just a new thing. But anyway, so is that how you feel about this? is not going to replace anything or is it just is it going to be a enable you to create something that was previously impossible? >> What do you mean by replace like replace a team member or >> Yeah, like like every drummer I knew when drum when the TR 808 came out they were like uhoh that's not you know they were all against it. Like that's not real drumming. That doesn't sound good. I'm way better than that. It's like
that's not the point. It's different. >> Yeah. And ma'am, this is a it's a philosophical question, >> right? It is. >> Yeah. But in the context of drumming, when did when did the 808 come out? I don't know the year. >> Uh late early 90s maybe. I'm not sure. >> Okay. Early 90s. Um you have Dave Gro who comes on and smashes it for Nirvana. You have I don't know the drummer's name, but the guy from Tulle who is absolutely fantastic and brings. Yeah. But he's freaking phenomenal. Chad Chad Smith from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Travis Barker from Blinkin 82. The drum machine didn't kill drumming. It just, you know, you still have people who want to make stuff by hand. And they bring in a different perspective that
hasn't, you haven't heard the drums done that way before. And it might be it might be so different and new because you have all this homogeneity that has come through with uh like speaking about music. The same thing can be applied to copyrightiting, design or web development. You know, it's like your perspective matters still >> and it's going to be an amalgam of all your different experiences is kind of my manifesto for brand identities, which is great brands aren't created, they're stolen. >> What they're stolen from is the things that make you you. Like Liquid Death is a water company. >> But the reason it's so impactful and different is because their founder is a skater punk metal dude who merged those
things with water. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a great example. So, I [snorts] mean, it remains to be seen, but you are I mean uh if it got there, you would use it and you guys are experimenting with it and you're are you bullish on it? Like do you do you think it's going to keep getting better or do you think we're going to have like an extinction level event and it's going to be you know like [snorts] >> you know I I think it's it's getting better. There's other tools like um specifically for design like node-based editors which are really cool that give you the ability to combine like actually work in a way that designers typically work which is you know I have this idea which it could be a sketch and then I
can turn this into something that is a little bit more fleshed out and high fidelity and then but I'm not a motion designer but with this it'd be really cool if I could make a move and hey now I can that's awesome. So, I've just augmented my my powers really of being a good creative director and stewarding this brand. And I think that's a important term to recognize within that is stewardship because right now you can't leave AI alone for like five minutes without it doing something that you're a gasast at, >> right? [laughter] Yeah. It's like Garage Band to make bring it back to music or or Logic or one of the more sophisticated ones. Like it's not going to do anything great for you. Like it
can maybe make something mediocre for you. Mhm. >> But you still have to know what you're doing, you know? You still need like whatever Billy Isish's brother, Phineas. You still need Phineas to run it or Skrillex or someone. It's not like it's not like, "Oh, wow. It's so much easier to edit in digital than it was with analog tape." It's like, yeah, it's easier, but you still have to have taste and like an ear and >> Yeah. >> perspective. I mean, I look at I mean, you are a really good example of that. You know, you your website is not designed. It's not, you know, anything like, and that's your perspective. Your emails don't have a bunch of, they're not even laid out, even though you use ConvertKit.
>> Yeah. >> And it's still really impactful. >> Even like, you're the freaking snail from Ditcherville, man. [snorts] [laughter] >> I'm not the snail. >> I'm all I'm all of them. >> No, I know who the snail is. Anyway, so uh I I'll take I'd rather be the snail than any of the other ones. But yeah, no, I mean that is a conscious design choice or like anti-design choice because I'm not going to pay someone to do it and I'll do a crap job. So, I'd rather have no design than crappy design. >> Yeah. >> And with the emails, not that anyone asked, but this is the reason. Uh I wanted them to look like they came from your brother. Like your brother doesn't send you pictures with like, you know, an email with like a bunch of pictures
in it and like, you know, a countdown timer and, you know, all that stuff. I'm not against people doing that, but [snorts] for me, I wanted the vibe. I wanted to get across was that it's like one of your buddies sent you an email. That's why they don't have the first name at the top like most most of them do because I would never do that if I was emailing my brother. Anyway, design choice. >> Great brands aren't created, they're stolen. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> In this case, stolen from your brother. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Cool. So, jeez, looking at the clock, I don't want to I feel like we could go on forever on any one of these topics, but yeah. So, what should we definitely cover before we wrap?
>> Well, I've got my five points for Stark, which was the answer to the question of why is the subscription model something good for soloists. >> Cool. >> Um, so I've got got them here. I think the first one I'm going to go in I'm going to save the best one for last. >> Okay. >> Uh, the first one is that you can prove value fast. You just get in and get working. You're not going to go through a rigma roll of onboarding. This is one of the things that's made conversion factory very successful is people ask us what's your onboarding process like we say we send you a notion invite tell us what you want us to work on we either get to work road mapping out what that looks like and get started on the first
task as soon as we know what it is or you tell us what you need and we get going >> prove value fast >> simple right >> yes the second thing is I think it helps you understand where your limits are for some of the questions that clients might ask you. One of my favorite ones, this is actually based off an email that you sent. >> I think it's the it's the snail talking to a client and it says, "What do you mean you don't know how long this will take?" It's like, "Weren't you supposed to be an expert?" And the snail says, "Well, I know how long it would take me, but you're going to be involved." So, [laughter] and that's true. So, we have at Conversion Factory, we we have our our V1, you know, market ready V1. This is
how long it will take us to get you a V1. We offer unlimited revisions. So >> every revision that you take, figure that's another 24 to 48 hours depending on the intensity of said revision. >> And those are controlled by you. >> Yeah. >> Mr. Client, not us. [laughter] >> Um, >> it's number two. Number three is uh you get really used to providing um guard rails with yes and answers. So most the way that this model works is you have to have some kind of uh limit to what people can put on their plate. You know like if you were at a buffet it's like you only get one plate. So whatever you can fit on there that's all that we work on. And for us it's you have different work rates at different tiers. You have
one at a time, two at a time, three at a time concurrently. >> So people will ask can we also work on this? We say yes and we will do it after we are done with this first thing that is in progress. Or they might come in with something that's really urgent say hey we need to work on this like we're working on this currently. Do you want to work on this one or this one? >> Yeah, >> make make your choice. >> Yep. >> Um, fourth one, and this is really huge, is system implementation. This model does not work unless you have systems in place for getting calls booked with you, getting email follow-up, having their dashboard ready to go. You need to have all of that architected so that you can do this very effectively and not want to
pull your hair out. I don't have any here so it doesn't matter but um system implementation and you will uncover systems to things that you didn't even know were systemized like my phrasing I say pull strings now because like oh I'm delivering client work here's my phrase for that connect the links done if I was really techsavvy I'd have my keyboard shortcuts to be like you know with the commands I'm not there yet I just I I speak now instead thanks to AI [snorts] >> into the mic and then type it. But that's a different story. So system system implementation another big thing this brings about. >> The last one is it's cons at the very least consider this a different arrow in your quiver for pricing and we do this
as well because one of the favorite lines that I heard in 2025 um it's from Joo Willink is there's no solutions only trade-offs. M >> and we've had clients come and ask us and say, "Hey, can we get, you know, a a fixed bid for this?" We say, "Sure, here are the trade-offs that you have to consider. On this fixed bid, we're only going to offer two revisions per deliverable. The fixed price is going to be a little bit higher than what we think the estimated time it will be on the subscription. >> Um, once you pay this, we're locked in. There's there is no first month guarantee for this. uh and you're going to pay more upfront than you would for this first month. You're also not going to have a flexible scope unless you want
to get a change order or something else like that. >> So, we list things out as not a good versus bad as a set of tradeoffs. >> I can charge you upfront for this work and this completed deliverable. I can charge you for access to me at different rates. And both of those have trade-offs inside of them. >> So, which one do you prefer? Do you want the flexible scope subscription is going to be a good choice for you? Do you want turnarounds every 48 hours? Like as soon as we get something done, we're going to send it over to you. Or do you want batched work sent on Thursdays, which is what we would do on a fixed bid? So, I think that's the coolest thing about this is it's just another way of thinking about how to charge people.
>> And do you actually do that still or is subscription the only option? Okay. No, we have so we have we have our audit which is $1,000 and that's a fixed diagnostic and then we have our subscriptions which vary in work rate and then we have our custom project which start at $25,000. So people will sometimes ask and then we say sure this is what it would look like for this stuff and the cool thing about the subscription is that it does give you kind of a barometer for like this is how many tasks I think are tallied up within this. This gives me a good gauge for what a fixedric offer should be. So I don't feel bad. Like if I want to give a price that's comparable to this subscription, I'm going to charge a
little bit more because I'm going to say this is fixed. It's a guaranteed price. >> Whereas the subscription, it's largely contingent on you and the revisions that you want to make, >> right? >> And giving them that option. It's like uh you know with my my daughter when she wants to go outside and go for a walk but she gets kind of fussy. We say we're in the street. You can hold mommy's hand or you can hold daddy's hand. Which hand do you want to hold? >> Choice. Right. >> Exactly. And then she feels in control like she's making the choice herself and then she chooses the one that obviously she chooses her mom. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> She's going to choose the one. She's going to choose the one that's the best
fit for her. Right. >> And clients are going to do the same. I I totally agree with that. I was more curious if you would just consider them to be bad fit client. You only wanted to do the subscription stuff, but that's a great point. So, it's like it's not necessarily all or nothing for people listening and maybe wanting to start out. Probably doesn't make sense to start out by hiring. I mean, that wouldn't make a ton of sense if you're a soloist now. It would just be like, "Okay, so here are some options." It reminds me of of my advice to people when they're they've been doing hourly and they're nervous about or confused about switching to value based pricing. It's like, well, just do everything the
same as you always do. Next client comes along, do everything the same as you always do. Scope like crazy in the sales meeting, create an estimate, and then the one thing you're going to do differently is take your estimate and multiply it by 1.85 and offer that as a fixed price. And what that does is it it it makes explicit in the client's decisionm mechanism that there is a risk difference between those two things. And and a lot of them will don't want to take the risk. They don't want to go back to their boss or partner and say, "Ah, it turns out this software project's going way over budget." They'd much rather pay the premium to get the fixed price in some cases. And in other cases, they'll be like, "No, I'll roll
the dice. I think I don't think it's actually going to take as long as you estimate it and I think you're overestimating how hard it's going to be and I'll gamble. So like one of them is a gamble, one of them's not. It's sort sort of similar to the the subscription. It's it's like one way you could approach it or you know offer it and then the other way would be some kind of fixed model. >> So that's pretty cool. I don't I haven't I don't think the other folks that are in in Ditcherville or other people I've talked to I don't think they also offer alternatives outside of the subscription model. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I came at it from in reverse and because, you know, I was I'm a huge fan of Blair Ends and David C.
Baker and Chris Doe and you know, I mean, I've got a wealth of pricing knowledge under my belt. Should really read this one book, uh, you know, learn your lines or hourly billing is nuts. [laughter] >> Yes. The checks in the mail. >> Yeah. Or pricing creativity or, you know, any of those other books that are fantastic about or Times Up, which is Ron Baker's book on the subscription model. >> Yeah. Um, and I've now I see like, well, pricing is supposed to be just as creative as the work that I'm doing. So, why would I not give this as an option? Because they might want it. And some of them do, you know, like some people want I want this thing and that's it. Great. >> I have to ask though, is it still no
meetings? >> Yep. >> So, it's the same it's the same interaction. It's just the the way the work is scheduled or something or >> little the only real difference is that we do batched work on Thursdays. So we just we plow through as much as we can on like cuz you know they're going to get a set amount of revisions. Um, and it's on them to review because we've sent over there's like six different pages of copy for review on those fixed projects because then our goal is you want you clearly want this done fast for a fixed price. We're going to get it to you and that's part of the trade-off. It's like you know on the sub the subscription you're paying less upfront for a confined work rate and but you're also
going to get work within 24 hours, 48 hours, what have you. You're going to get unlimited revisions on it. And so I'm trying to make them see the nuance between those. >> That's great. >> You only get you only get two revisions. If you want more, then get more. Uh if you want a flexible scope, pick a flexible scope. >> Neither of the thing neither of those things are bad >> um or good. It's up to you to decide what's going to be the best fit for you as a client. >> Cool. Great. Well, that's a great place to leave it and we're just about right on time. So, fantastic. Good work. >> Well, I look I look forward to bringing you back maybe at the end of 2026 for the the year end wrap up. See how see if
you're up to 50 employees or what's [laughter] >> 50 employees within one year is a That sounds like a recipe for disaster. >> Yeah, maybe more AI or something in between. >> Yeah, 50 AI agents. [snorts] >> Cool, man. >> Uh, cool. So, uh, could you tell folks where they can find out more about Conversion Factory or anything else you're doing online? >> Sure. So, uh, I think the best person to follow online actually is going to be my co-founder, uh, Corey Haynes. You can find him at Corey Haynes. That is his Twitter handle or X, sorry, whatever it is. >> Just Google him. He's he's quite Googleable. [laughter] >> You can find out more about what Conversion Factory is doing. We also have a podcast called The Factory Floor,
which where we share marketing insights for software companies. Um, and if you aren't necessarily interested in that, but just want to hear a couple three nerds and weirdos having a warm-up topic before their podcast, we have a segment called the breakroom that is usually about Lord of the Rings or one of my co-founders will have a silly quiz for us to take or Star Wars or you know, whatever just to get the juices flowing. >> Nice. That sounds great. Well, thanks so much for joining us and sharing all of this like fascinating and useful information. >> My pleasure. Thank you, Jonathan. All right, folks. I'm Jonathan Stark, and that's it for this week. I hope you join me again next time for Ditching
Hourly. Bye.
Back with Jonathan Stark for year three: hiring, training, onboarding, and why a phone call is usually the most expensive way to answer a question.