Why Webflow is the best website builder for SaaS

0:05Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the factory floor. Today I'm joined by guess who? Same people I'm joined by every week or surprise two weeks, however long we we wait before we post these. We have Corey here and Zach here and we are going to be talking about something that is near and dear to me in particular. Uh we're talking about uh website building tools, specifically Web Flow and Framer, and some honorable mentions for uh customcoded sites. So, we're going to talk about website platforms and more specifically which one you should choose for your SAS startup or for any really other types of businesses, too. We'll kind of talk about the whole gamut of everything and we will probably argue a

0:54little bit about what thing is best which is ideal because it's fun to argue with people. Um but we will go from there. Does that sound good to you guys? >> We know let's do it. >> Okay. Corey, which platform do we use the most? >> Web flow. >> That's right. Okay. So disclaimer is we use Web Flow. We recommend Web Flow to our clients. Um, the reason we do is backed by a bunch of things that we'll talk about, but um, we want to be fairly objective here. Does that sound good to you guys? Like I I want to give every option a fair shot. Like when does it actually make sense to not use Web Flow and to use Frame or when does it make sense to use neither and custom code everything? Uh, I want to be like fair

1:39to that and I don't want to just be like, well, we like this one best so just pick that one. But yeah, so long as we all agree that there's no good reason to use WordPress. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we can all agree on that. >> I'm pretty sure that all of humanity is coming to that to that realization. >> We can add a couple other in there too. Specifically, if you are a software brand, you should not use WordPress or Wix or Squarespace or Weebly >> or really any of the tools other than the the three that we are going to mention to build your marketing website. >> Yeah, sounds good. Okay, so um there's there's a bunch of stuff to talk about with this. Corey, you said that you're going to advocate on some level for

2:26customcoded sites. So before we kind of get to like the meat and potatoes of like do we like framer or do we like web flow and what are the differences? Why was that your first thought when we were like talking about oh we're going to do web flow versus frame? Why were you like oh I'm going to talk about customcoded sites that's what I want to talk about? Well because a lot of clients are switching off of customcoded sites or they have reasons why they want to stay with their customcoded site. And so I feel like it's only fair to add to this discussion of like where are people coming from or what are they currently on right now and how do you know when to like stay on that or if you're just building a site for the first time. Um

3:08you know knowing what you're getting yourself into if you do choose that route. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Yeah. Well, why don't we I feel like that's going to be a fairly limited number of reasons why someone would pick that. So maybe let's or do you say do you think say otherwise? >> Will there be argue it? >> I have I have some reasons. Yeah, >> let me hear. >> Um and yeah, I feel like it's no like secret for us, but um well, starting with some of the pros. Uh we were for one I think this conversation is interesting because we're just coming back from Valocon here in San Diego hosted by Drew Wilson which is awesome >> and uh a lot of the discussion has been around AI AI design um the future of kind of like the web and how web pages

4:02websites are built and generated. Um and so we were talking about okay well what do people use? They use Web Flow, they use Framer, they have customcoded sites. What is it? And in particular, I'll talk about some of the cons here in a second, but I thought it was interesting because, you know, Drew with his startup Opacity is trying to make it easier to design and create a shortcut to turn designs into code, which would make customcoded sites a lot easier to build into design. um versus having to basically eyeball it every single time like you do have to today. Um even though there's things where you know you can get some cues about design choices and in Figma, you more or less still have to eyeball it because not

4:53everything translates one to one. Um but yeah, some of the pros I feel like one of the big ones is um just going to be if you do have any kind of interplay between your marketing site and your product where you need product-like functionality in your website, that's going to be impossible to do within a third party platform like Web Flow or Frame. So if you want a lot of product interactivity or if you're pulling in a lot of data from your product to display particularly like on um programmatic pages, programmatically generated pages for SEO, um you can embed calculators and build free tools, ROI estimators, um sort of a lot of things that could lead into the product that can be a more native experience. Um, that's one of the

5:50big reasons I think what a lot of developers will tell you andor designers is that obviously you get full control and you have 100% reign over the configuration over everything when it's your own site. So, there's definitely like some pros in there. I'm not even going to list them because I think they're pretty small and insignificant and don't really outweigh all the cons that come along with that, too. But those are the main like pros that come to my mind. And I think that the pro we have to maybe anticipate is that for example if Drew can crack the code on going from design to code that that then actually skips a whole step and makes it a no-brainer to try to go from a design to something built on the web with with

6:38just clicking a button. Yeah, the line is much like shorter. Like why would we add in a no code builder after this when we can export it into like perfect perfected air quotes for now code? Yeah. >> Yeah. Just definitely make it faster. But that's if and when AI can bridge the gap and other technology like opacity for example. >> Yeah. I think when when we're talking about like we'll call them no code but some of them are like light code uh builders like I would consider web flow not a truly no code builder. It's like a light code light builder. Um there's like the the problem that all of them have other than web flow is that it's not true clean HTML. So when you pull a paragraph in framer like oh I'm over

7:30here in the like panel and I can pull a paragraph onto the page. It's deciding classes and wrapping the paragraph in a div and every time you're making changes in this in the style panel, it's building the class structure and the HTML underneath. Whereas Web Flow is the only one where it actually has true HTML that you can fully control right there. And there's no added divs. There's no added spacing that you don't manually put in or don't have full control of taking out. Um, and I think that's why after using Web Flow for a long time now, I'm like it's really hard for me to even want to touch the other tools because there's so it's like wearing handcuffs. Even though it like if you're if you started out learning Framer and

8:17Web Flow on the same day, you'd probably be able to build a site faster in Framer. like the learning curve is lower, but once you know you can build a site over here in Web Flow and then you're like pushed into another platform, it's like, dude, why are we doing this? Why are we doing this? It doesn't make sense. I've watched like >> something else I I wanted to mention, and maybe Zach, you can speak to this a little bit, but I've watched a ton of videos on like Web Flow versus Framework. Which one should you pick? And there's like a class of videos where it's like developers, web developers talking about the two tools. All of them are like you must use Web Flow if you're going to use one of these two. You

8:59cannot use Framer. Don't use Framer. All the developers say that. And then there's this whole other class of like founder designer YouTubers who are like Figma or Framer makes it easy because I could do this, this, and this. And they're like they're not concerned at all about the HTML. They don't they don't care. they're, you know, they're focused on the visuals and the, um, like the drag and drop easiness and the import from Figma. Um, and almost all of them have some sort of design background. So, as the designer, why is it just that it's easier if you've used Figma, that's why they like frame? Is that what you think, Zach? No, I think that what they are most concerned about, at least the designer

9:45founder group, is a they can it's a lot easier to make things very very very flashy in frame. the time that it takes to create really like you know dribbleesque animations or fun stuff like that. It's easier to do in framer like you know we did that thing for Sanja where I have those looping rotating images that spin around on one another to do that in web flow it's a little bit harder and it requires just more steps. It's possible and you can do it. It was just way like in in frame it was click rotate you know set on a loop and then you're done. So you're able to do a lot of really flashy stuff. It is also far more of a wizzywig than Web Flow is where you can actually move things on the canvas. But that does come

10:36with a lot of drawbacks. You know that you know if you have actually had to worry about things like the SEO, the scalability of a site and this is where something like classes feel like a constraint. But then you learn how to use them and they become a massive unlock because you're able to build things at such a bigger scale and make adjustments way faster. I think that what it is it's just like you know with um what did we someone said this at Valocon and I forget exactly what it was for but they referred to a lot of the newer AI tools and I think framer would fall into this category as well as the sugar of design and marketing where it's like not very substantive like you know it's it's eating cotton

11:20candy compared to having a steak dinner with potatoes takes a lot longer time to prepare it doesn't have the and kind of immediate gratification on your taste buds that cotton candy does, but it's not freaking cotton candy. It's actually something that's going to sustain you for a long time. I think that's what they are getting at. They want that quick hit and spike of dopamine that comes from getting something, but they don't see the long-term negative side effects of going about building a site like that. I think that's the main drawback with it. Zach, have you looked at Figma sites? >> Yeah, they're horrible. >> They're horrible. Yes, they're really bad. >> Um, for now that I should caveat

12:07that the previous comment with with that as well, but it's for now it is not a enterprise level or I would say even just scalable tool so to speak. framer um or Figma sites. You know, they're we used Figma sites to send out brand guidelines for a client, but that's because the brand guidelines have no market util utility to them apart from just making it really easy for their team to access some of the stuff that we had made for them. >> Yeah. What what what I'm going to do is I'll give you like I have some notes of just things that I've I've written down over time of like how these things stack up next to each other. Uh, so like Web Flow, Framer, Wix, Figma sites, how they like stack up next to one another and

12:53just some of the things that should be included in all of these but aren't. Clean HTML is like always the first one on the list. It's like look, you should be able to fully control the HTML. But something that any everyone who uses Web Flow who knows what they're doing uh uses is REM. So like REM the the value for you know like spacing and stuff. So like pixels don't we don't use pixels like no one should use pixels. that's like an accessibility standard is using REM or M for like scaling purposes and framer only supports it on text I think everything else nothing is REM everything is pixels Figma sites doesn't support REM and Wix doesn't support REM uh so it's like this is to like if you ask like a traditional or any web

13:37developer old school who's been around for a long time they're going to tell you that the like the industry standard is that you use REM and like the these website builders. That's what they do. They build websites. Don't have it. It's like it just seems crazy to me. Margin, a lot of them don't have margin. I think Wix is the only other one with margin and and Web Flow. Uh many of them have limited CSS variables. So, they'll take like if you set a variable in Figma or in one of these other ones when it's actually like seen as the in the HTML itself, like if you actually look at the code, it's just raw values. it's not actually stored as variables, which is not good. Um, like inheritance of of

14:22classes and styles isn't there. So, if you have like a heading one, you can't add another class and then change the parent class to have it inherent on all of them. So, there's like all of these like major gaps that Web Flow actually hits on that the other ones don't. So, those are all like my big gripes. Um, but I think there's like a broader question which is like why why are so many people picking it over web flow to build their SAS marketing site? Like why would they pick it over Web Flow to build? Is it just ease of building? I think it's for the same reason that teenagers pick cotton candy over steak and potatoes. It's really good and it's delicious at the beginning, but if you keep having

15:06it, you know, year over year over year over year, you're going to have some downstream side effects that you're not going to be very happy with and you should just eat your meat and potatoes. Um, and I get like the point of something like Framer is like we want to skip over the deb phase, you know, we just we don't want to have to go through that. But at the same time, we noticed this with the clients that we've seen that are on Framer. It's like, well, you actually have to like you still have to design stuff and there's still a lot of iteration that has to be done. Like, you know, Framer is really good, but it's not going to be able to do the same kind of image generation that Figma can or something in Photoshop or Illustrator or

15:44even Figma has a better vector editing tool than Framer does. And you move through the steps. It's almost like a mark of maturity, you know, like your willingness to walk through the steps to do them right of get your design finished first, then move into the development of it, I think plays a major role in it. So, if you're looking to really validate something and you don't want to spend a whole lot of time on it, you're not even sure if it will scale, but you know that you need to change eventually, frame is not a bad place to start. Um, or if you're a designer who is going to build a portfolio site that doesn't need a lot of the same kind of marketing potential and prowess, then use it. But it's not what I would

16:32consider a business ready marketing website. If you were, especially if you were focusing on things like programmatic SEO, um, conversions and leads, like framer is not a great tool for that. >> Yeah. As a marketer, Corey, do you have like if you didn't know anything about web flow, do you think that you would be attracted to like, oh, I can spin up something on frame that looks like so awesome, so fast? >> No. I mean, I've never, you know, I I think the value prop for Framer is it's like Figma, but you're building a website. And I'm like, well, I didn't know how to use Figma either. So, that doesn't appeal to me at all. Um, if anything, you know, I've always been a fan of Web Flow because, uh, even if

17:21you're not a designer, even if you're just working with a template, you can still kind of make little tweaks and changes or at least kind of componentize sections and then swap out the content and you can kind of treat it more like a UI kit versus when I see something like Framer, it feels like you're always starting from scratch, more or less. And um that to me just like feels like you know kind of a a deal breaker. Um but I understand people where people are coming from and I think this is just a problem of when people are first starting out because I think for the same reason people choose Framer when they're first starting out cuz it's like oh I'm going to use this to make a really nice landing page like literally

18:04just a single page website. People do the same thing if they're more technical with customcoded sites because they're like, "Oh, I know Tailwind CSS and I have this template here and it looks nice, so I'm just going to use this. I'm already building my app. I can just have one additional file here that's for my homepage landing page and then just be done with it." But then they don't realize, oh, now for anybody else to come in and make changes, make updates, add content, create pages, manage the CMS, it's going to be virtually impossible in custom code. It's going to be harder in Framer. Um, but particularly with custom code, you know, I I've had this before in previous jobs where I write the copy, hand it off to a

18:48designer, and then I put it in the backlog for developers to build, and then it sits there for three months. >> We've had this with clients, too, where we're like Hey, here's all the designs. And then it builds up this backlog and then they're like, um, so we're going to have to cancel because now we have too much work for our developers to work through and it doesn't make sense for us to keep paying you to make things that are just going to sit in a backlog for months and months and months. Um, yeah, >> that to me is like one of the biggest drawbacks of both custom code and something like Framer because you also have to get your designer to design it. Um, but one other thing I'll just mention

19:27about custom code, one of the drawbacks is the technical SEO challenges because ironically and unfortunately, you know, uh, we saw a stat on a slide at Viocon where it was like 95 to 97% of all sites are built on some sort of um, component-based front-end JavaScript. script framework like React for example. Um, and unfortunately a lot of those frameworks that are JavaScript based like React are actually not very SEO friendly. And so I've gone through this with a couple of my side projects where I am just playing whack-a-ole with technical SEO challenges because oh this particular framework um the the adapter that it uses to generate the page renders the content or like the structure before the

20:25actual content per page because everything's componentized. And so all of the metad descriptions and metal titles are either missing or they're all the same or they're missing a certain variable. So then I have to write another script to overwrite that and inject it onto the page after it's rendered. And then there's a bunch of other things that I'm playing whack-a-ole with. And like it's really is kind of just a nightmare. Whereas you get something like web flow for example. And I keep telling this, I don't I don't even know where the idea came about that Web Flow is not good for SEO >> because I'm like I couldn't think of a better tool for SEO. Like it's just almost impossible to screw up.

21:06>> And that's a huge benefit. >> There's a big red flag at the bottom that's like, "Hey, your headings are out of order." Like you you would be hard to miss. Uh and they like they try to point it out. basic fields for all the things that you need to put in and you're you're not going to have a lot of the technical issues about when things are rendered and how and how it's displayed or picked up by Google to be it's like it's all just even like the site map is automatically updated and >> y >> generated and updated. I've had issues with customcoded sites where I was like, "Oh, the site map isn't updating for whatever reason because the gem I installed, it's there's something conflicting with it and whatever." And

21:46it's like you you take for granted all the things that come out of the box of something like Web Flow once you start using something else. The thing that blows my mind too that I wish more teams would recognize is how much are you paying your engineers? It's probably somewhere around like 200 250 per hour. >> Oh jeez. Yeah, that's that's pretty like >> maybe even more >> conservativeish. Yeah. >> Yeah, we'll say 250. Make it make it even. Whenever you have to make an update to anything on your site, there goes $250 minimum >> or an hour because they are going to have to stop whatever they're working on to go do this thing. Even if it's changing a period to a comma on a paragraph, they're the one that has to go in and do

22:36it and there goes an hour where that could have been spent on your product. And that adds up. Let's say they do that once a week for a year. Even if they get four weeks vacation, that's 48 hours, a full 120% of a work week that could have been dedicated to your product. And they're spending a lot more than that. Like we were speaking with a client recently who was debating whether they should or should not switch over to Webflow and to make changes on their hard-coded site. It would have it's going to take their engineering team just to implement some new copy. It's going to take them four to five days to get them to get that done. >> Copy. >> Mhm. >> Copy. Crazy. >> And that's their engineering team. The

23:21people who are supposed to be working on their product. Your engineering team should not be working on your marketing website. I think that that's a >> a huge huge no no like >> especially because they they they don't know how to design and they aren't copyriters. So like you're taking the tools and making them gatekeepers to give lifeblood to your company >> when that should be in the hands of marketers and designers. The good the one thing that I I think is pretty probably clear to most to most at least designers is that uh framer is really just good for them. Like it's like devs know that they don't want to use framer.

24:10Marketers know that they don't want to use framer. And in my mind, people who are like founders who are just like doing everything on their own, they might be more inclined to not use framer because it requires a lot of I think like design visuals. Um, the thing about web flow too that I I really like is that it's it's like okay, so here's my analogy is that all these tools are like, think of it like you're bowling. Like Wix, you're bowling and the bumpers are up. You're good. Like it's going to get down there. It might not hit all the pins, but it's going to get down there. Framer is like Web Flow, you're bowling, but the the bumpers are down. You can mess up a uh a Web Flow site. I meant Web Flow, sorry.

24:58Like you could be bowling and you could, you know, mess up some classes and do some things and like you could you could break this thing. It's definitely possible to break it just like a customcoded site. Like there's no bumpers. You could break something. like just be you need to know what you're doing to use this. Um, most of the time Figma it's like or not Figma, all these names exactly the same. Framer is like you're bowling and there's no bumpers and you're also wearing socks and like the lane is tilted a little bit to the right and there's only a couple pins at the end. Like it's like everything just feels weird and like you can't hit all the pins. There's not enough over there. like it's just like everything is just

25:36out of order and in my mind web flow is the closest to like true control over those things. Um and then I was going to say something about the u oh shoot what is it? Oh frick, I forgot it slipped my mind. Um yeah, I don't know. I just the more that I use like de learning to use web flow taught me what HTML and CSS is like that is something that I can take if web flow explodes tomorrow I have that in my pocket that I understand what HTML and CSS is how and how it works that is not something you get when you work with framer that's not something you get when you work with uh you know Wix or any of these other uh you know wizzywig you builders. Uh you can get that with a customcoded site, but like I

26:27I just I have a hard time believing that there's really anything that makes sense if you're a developer outside of Web Flow or customcoded. I wonder if there's there's probably some other tools that I should be considering too. There's so many. I don't know. For SAS startups, not really. I think that that's >> Yes. >> You know, we're talking about the big three right now. Um, maybe the only other one that's kind of worthy of mention because again, a lot of people use it is WordPress. Um, maybe I I'll go through that just for a second, but I think WordPress kind of has like the worst of all of them and none of the benefits where it's also very very easy to mess up a WordPress site or to mess up

27:16the even the raw HTML on it. It's very very hard to build anything that is designed in Figma from WordPress because you're basically custom coding it anyways. Otherwise, you're using a Wizzywig builder that's a plugin in WordPress to do your designing or try to match a design, but then you're, you know, you're completely nerfed. You're handicapped. Um, you know, there's like >> there's like five guard rails up and one pin at the end of the lane. It's just incredibly difficult from an SEO perspective. All the things that used to be good about WordPress SEO are now completely outdated or obsolete or even negative indicators to Google because it might be tempting or easy to do things like keyword stuffing which like hasn't

28:03been a thing for over a decade. Um, and WordPress sites are notorious for having security vulnerabilities which also is very bad for SEO and just conversions in general. But you're going to have all sorts of things that are that it's prone to. Um WordPress's real like strength is their CMS kind of. Like I really don't see any advantages over Web Flow personally. Um and it definitely doesn't give you any advantages for something like programmatic SEO cuz I've looked into all the plugins and they're all very very simple. It's basically like, hey, upload this CSV and then try to match it to fields. But like that's I mean so rudimentary it's kind of laughable. >> Yeah, it's just use Web Flow. Make yourself happy.

28:56>> Well, I'm like I get I get why someone if they don't know how to use Web Flow would be like I'm never using this. Like >> yeah, >> it's just too too hard. You can't do it yourself. >> No. Well, that's that's the thing. I as a service provider, like if I go to the dentist, like I have a base level expectation that if they're going to be filling my tooth with a, you know, filling a cavity that they're using good materials, they know how they're doing it. It's going to work correctly. Like there's no like I don't I have an expectation that things are done correctly. like not that they get done and I don't care how it gets done, it just needs to get done. And so when a someone hires us as a service provider

29:43or me specifically as a service provider, like their default expectation is that if I'm building them a website, it gets done correctly and has clean code. It has, you know, uh, REM scaling and it has, um, the variables variables built in, it has CMS where it makes sense. like they have a default expectation that they don't even know what those things are, but they expect the right things to be in place if I'm if they're paying me for a website. So whether they know it or not, it's my responsibility to pick the best platform that does the most best things for the client. And I can't think of a single situation where if I'm being hired to build someone's website or we are being hired to build someone's website that

30:28I'm using framer. I can't either. And I'm the designer in the group. I think that as even as Nick mentioned, you know, like having to go back to Framer and learn some of the like my favorite example is if we need to create a a heading, an an H2 heading that needs to look like an H3 or an H4. That is very easy to do in Web Flow. In Framer, you have to create the Figma equivalent of six component variants for each of your headings. So you have a component that is your heading one, but then stylized like a heading one. And you do the same thing for H2 through 6. You have a total of 36 different components that you then have to use. And then if you want to change the colors on them, those are additional components for light mode and

31:28dark mode. And that's where the benefit of things like classes come in where instead it's the same element but you have more granular control over that component and or that element and you can change it a lot more freely and then go back if you need to. But the like the drawback to all those components is it create it creates its own set of chains within framer and then the only person who's even able to make anything becomes your designer and then you run into the same issue that you have with the with engineers is that well you need your designer working on some other stuff too not just like you know if you want to spin up a landing page your designer should be able to make templates for you and they can do this

32:15within web flow so you can and build the assets necessary to create a page or you use CMSbased templates. And framework does have a CMS, but I don't think that it's the same to the same degree that a web flow CMS is built out where you have a lot more flexibility over things like I want this thing to be hidden. Um, and you're taking into account a lot of the potential switches that a marketer might be using on their website where we need the CTA to say this and it's going to be conditional based on this page or whether this other element is in there. So, but when you set all those things up at the forefront, you make it so that other people besides the designer or the web flow developer can then use the

33:01page. And I don't see that being feasible with a tool like framer or the customcoded sites. You create bottlenecks on either one of those. >> Yeah. And I think just as like a pitch around what you were saying with like CMS is that the like it I think it's their business plan. Framer's business plan is $200 a month for their scale business plan. That's like the highest most expensive business plan you can get with Framer. You get 30 CMS collections. So you can make 30 different collections as opposed to in web flow it's $40 a month for their business plan and you get 40. So you get more for like a fourth of the price and CMS is like a foundational piece of web building if you want to as their plan is called

33:49scale like >> I didn't know this either. Did they they charge per editor? Yeah, you get three editor seats max, I think. And I think they're it's like 20 bucks a pop. Yeah. >> So anyway, to if you actually if you want to scale like you should be building not on framer that should that like I honestly if you're like I have a new product I'm launching and I just need a page I know how to use framer and just put it out there template don't care like great. I think that's totally fine. As soon as you want an actual marketing website, you should stop using Framer. I think it's like a good place to start. It's fine to, you know, it's fine to use card. It's fine to use Wix and just buy a $20 template, the

34:35cheapest you can find, just to capture emails until you launch your product. But when you want a marketing website that has features, integrations, it has uh you know all the images, product illustrations, testimonials, programmatic SEO pages, um everything all tightened up, as much custom code as you need to do any tracking. Like all that stuff is so much easier to build and set up in Web Flow than it is in Framer. Um >> I don't know. It's just it's just crazy. I also here's my final challenge. We'll be done I think after this unless you guys have any final words. Next time you see someone who's launched a new site on Framer, go and get a heading map Chrome extension that tells you what the

35:19headings are on the page. And I guarantee you eight nine times out of 10 they're either going to have multiple H1s or they're not going to have any, which is like website building 101 is that you need one H1 on your page. So, I just next time you see someone post a framer like, "Oh, I just launched this new thing." Go get a a heading map Chrome extension and go check on the website and see if their headings are in the right order. And I can almost guarantee that they're not is because it's really annoying and complicated to do the most basic things in Framer, but at least it looks good. Final words. Do you guys think I'm right about everything I ever said? Unfortunately, yes. I think you are.

36:11>> No, I mean, as as the marketer, I I feel like I just have to remind everybody sometimes that your website's number one uh purpose is to be your 247 salesperson. And you need your website to do a job which is to convert people to becoming customers and to make it available for people to find you. And you know maybe try to like make some analogies here. It's like framer is like cool you got a nice plot of land out in the suburbs but like good luck getting people there because the SEO side of things is a mess. It's like good luck creating a lot of pages, good luck handling all the CMS or even having enough to work with. Um, the customcoded site is more like you're building your own skyscraper from scratch downtown

37:10and like you just kind of get way over your head uh way quicker than you thought that you would. It's kind of like, you know, reinventing the wheel in a lot of aspects and then you have too much control more than you ever wanted to. And Web Flow is, you know, somewhere in between. It's it's kind of like, all right, just outside of downtown, but it's a nice modern building. There's there's ground rules and it's not like >> plenty of parking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's like it's got >> it's it's the cool co-working space. >> On the first floor. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, and so yeah, it might be hard to start with something like Web Flow, but it's the best long-term solution for sure, whereas it's way easier to start with a

37:59framer or a customcoded site. One last I have a final parting thought. With every level of entrepreneurship, you relinquish a little bit of control. And part of that is going to be giving your especially if you are a technical founder. You need to give up your marketing website to people who can actually market for you and design and bring all those pieces together so that people can find you. So if you're a technical founder and you're thinking of building your site by hand, remember this is not supposed to be you forever. like you need to get this into the hands of somebody else who can take this off your plate so that you can actually do the things that you're really good at. And the same thing could be said of anybody

38:50who is thinking of building a framer site. If you're doing this because you need to do it all yourself, that's fine. with your growth as an entrepreneur, you will have to give it up and it should go to the team that's going to be best fit for doing the job, which is your marketing team. The your marketing website is a marketing asset and it needs to fall under their jurisdiction and control so that they can test, they can ship, they can implement changes and if you create any bottlenecks for them to do that, you are hindering the growth of your company. Yeah, it's all about me. Don't bottleneck me, please. People, just get out of my way. Let me do my job. >> You're nothing. Let me do my job.

39:34>> You're We are all nothing without any of us. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for listening to me rant for many minutes on why Web Flow is better than Framer. Okay. Blessings to all and to all a good night. See you guys next time.