You need a creative director in 2025

0:05All right, everyone. Welcome to the factory floor. Uh, I am joined by my beautiful Vanna White style compatriots. Uh, we have Corey, Jonathan, Franklin, Haynes. Corey, how are you today? >> I'm doing well, thank you. >> Okay, sweet. Pretty lackluster pregame interview, by the way. >> You're supposed to be like hyped about it. Yeah, >> I think I just used all all my energy talking about my um travel horror story. >> Yeah, our warm-up discussion. Got it. Okay. Well, we'll move on. Uh and then we also have, of course, Zach Stevens. Zachary, how are you? Are you ready for the game today?

0:52>> You know, I'm I'm just stoked to be here. Our team's going to play great. I'm going to give it 110%. And you know, whoever's on the other side of me better watch out cuz I'm playing for keeps and I'm not leaving anything on the table. There's nothing that's going to be left out for this. I'm just kind of upset. Or I'm I'm not upset actually. I'm really glad that I don't have as many middle names as Cory does cuz you actually missed a couple. You know, you had Franklin, but you missed Bartholomew. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, Reginald, >> you get one after every podcast. So, every single one you're going to have like >> that many middle names. >> Well, I appreciate you, Zach. Sounds like you've been in the lab just

1:30cooking, getting ready for the game. >> You actually left out his uh >> his title as well. It's Esquire. >> Yeah, that's right. I forgot. You're a lawyer. >> You know for lawyers, right? >> Of course. >> Okay. I didn't know that. I told I had a friend that became a lawyer. But anyway, um okay. We are uh going to keep this podcast a little short and sweet. Um but uh yeah, it's going to be great this week or this episode. Um was the topic of discussion was selected by our very own Zach Stevens. Um and I don't know much about it, so I'm going to let him take over. Basically, the the one phrase is that creative direction is the last moat. My assumption is this is in regards to AI, but I don't know. So, I'm going to let

2:20Zach uh tell us what's up. >> Yeah. So, this is a uh the starting point for this was a post by Mr. RJ Abbott. Um he's the founder of Neighborhood Cult and a creative polymath, who I am not connected with on LinkedIn, but maybe I will be after this. Anyway, someone I know liked his post and it was a PSA to tech founders and VCs saying that the creative director is now the most underrated hire in tech. And the reason for that is because everything with respect to creativity, building a brand, emotional loyalty is all being outsourced now to AI, if not being expeditated and commoditized at a rate that we've never seen before. So the only thing that is standing between you and being a commoditized offer that

3:10now has to is avoiding a race to the bottom with your pricing and commanding premium offers is that creative director and that person who is able to establish an emotional connection and steward all the creative assets that make people love your brand. not just see it as something valuable, but love it and appreciate it and want to stick around and see it as more valuable than maybe even you do. Is that a good starting point? >> I think so. Yeah, I I have an immediate question. Um, >> okay. So, I don't come from the creative world. I'm I would consider myself a non-creative. Um, in my head, okay, don't take offense to this. The creative director is a little ethereal, a little like Lucy good. It's

3:58kind of like a musician, right? Like, are they going to show up for rehearsal on time? What are they going to say? Is what they say going to feel like what what did you say? What what are we trying to do? That in my mind is a creative director. And oftentimes when I think like if I met someone and they were like, hey, my name's, you know, Frederick and I'm a creative director, I'd be like, you don't have a job. That would be my first thought. Uh, and the reason for that is because it's a very like it's not a set in stone feeling title. >> Um, can you either help me see the light or confirm some of the thoughts I have and like show me the other side of the coin maybe? >> Yeah. Well, I think that it depends on

4:42you have to understand what this person's job is and actually when they do a good when they do a good job at it, what does that look like? uh my the best way that I can characterize it is it's stewardship over the words and visuals that tell the story of your brand and keep that story consistent so you don't have these veering tangential plot lines within your user journey or just like the progression of your brand as it evolves and you know taps into new markets etc. It is their job to maintain the personality and essentially the brand like that is their job is to maintain that loyalty and the emotional connection. Um and then also understanding well where where can we flex what strategic decisions we make

5:27that because everything that they would oversee has trickle down effect throughout an organization. Creative touches the product. Creative touches the marketing. Creative touches sales. Creative touches. I mean, you can even like this is brand and positioning tie into each other at the foundational root of your marketing strategy. And they don't it's not like one comes after the other. they are both at the bottom working to not only venture into new arenas and markets within uh within your vertical or your just your market uh but then also make sure that it's going to be okay to do that. It's like a pushpull, you know, like a a yin and yang at the base of your your marketing efforts. And when the when you have a creative

6:12director that doesn't understand positioning, that doesn't understand business, that's when you run into problems. Their job is to steward all of that and do so in the context of we're still growing a business. It's not just expression and art, but I'm doing this in an effort to maintain the human humanity of a especially in our realm of a digital product. Um Corey, did you when I say like or when I was making my claim about the creative director, right? Like do you you're also like a non-creative, right? Like Zach is the creative one. We're the like the other guys. >> Do you have like the same thing that go Okay. Yeah. But but not like you did you have like >> No, I had the same thought. >> Yeah. 100%. It's like anytime I've met a

7:01art director or a creative director specifically at like an agency, they're usually um you know they're wearing a denim jacket, they have really nice hair, >> they service in a different language. Yeah. They have circular metal thin rimmed glasses. >> Um, you know, they're sort of like speaking a different language where you're like, "Wa, I don't really know what you're saying, but it sounds cool." And it's hard to like grasp what they do. I think I've come to appreciate it more because then I started working with agencies and then I started learning more about, you know, brands and branding and the whole process and uh go that goes into it. Um, so actually, you know, even when I read the title of what

7:46Zach proposed, I was like, "Huh, I wonder what that means." But then as soon as he said like, "You need a creative director to be the steward of all these things," it immediately clicked because it's true. Like you need someone with really really good taste so that everything everything doesn't just like go off the rails or become super stale or mediocre. >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. Well, I guess it's they're also really good. Like a good creative director. The person who I always think of is is not the person in like a denim jacket or, you know, with colored hair or, you know, that is a little bit more fattish with the way that they present themselves. The person I think of is Don Draper from Madmen.

8:31>> Oh, >> like that is when I think of creative director, that's who I think of. And the reason I think of him is because he's a perfect example. Uh, one of my favorite things about that show is he's a very good aator uh of telling really good stories, but he always ties it back into like, well, you're number four in your your vertical and you are going to reject the things that I'm saying in an effort to keep being that way and that's not something I'm interested in. If you want to be number one, then we should continue talking. So not only for his dealings with clients but >> um his respect for business and art as a joint effort to make business better and I think to make art better actually like

9:14my favorite art is design stuff for for business like this website is beautiful and it conveys a a message and makes you want to buy. This product is beautiful and it is delightful to use. That's art and business working together. And when creator does its job really well then it speak like it it adds a tremendous amount of value because it's delight on top of utilitarianism and functionality. Uh so I think of him because he is a he's not as aloof or you know crazy. He's very methodical and pragmatic. He's actually also the only person, if you watch the entire series, everyone else in that agency changes with the trends of the time. I think it starts in the 60s and then ends in the late '7s. And

10:03there's a lot of fashion trends or maybe it's late 50s up until the early '7s. And there's a lot of fashion trends that emerge like some of the guys in the in the agency like start getting sideburns and you like keep up with like the '7s haircuts. You see the women change in their clothing styles. He's actually the only one who doesn't change at all. Like his suits don't change, his hairstyle doesn't change. He's consistent all the way through. So I think that another side of him that I think I respect and why I think of him when I think of creative direction is his system systemization and authenticity. Like I'm not deviating to follow a fad. I am sticking true to what I know is timeless and is going to work. I I think that

10:47given that Corey and I both like have the same person in our brain, it's obvious that creative directors need to rebrand. >> Um they need a new creative direction. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um okay. And when you were talking, Cory, it had me thinking like about um maybe a better way to think about this person and less of like the person that we were picturing in our head is like uh a video game like a video game director like you know you're the new say you're a director of you know this project of building this game and there's >> yeah let's go with um something that I might understand better like uh let's say Call of Duty, okay? And we have you have a team that works on the campaign, you have a team

11:39that works on uh the multiplayer, you have a team that works on like the horde mode, whatever that is. Um but your job is cuz those teams don't really touch one another. They don't like interact in the same way. are just focused on their project, but you see from the top and your job is to make sure that there's a through line through all of it that all of it connects correctly that all of the weapons or the, you know, loadouts or whatever are all balanced and makes sense based on each of the other ones and the context that they don't all have and that the visuals all match. Like they're they're kind of like seeing everything and watching the teams make sure that it all lines up together. Is

12:20that a better understanding maybe of what this person does? You're such a [ __ ] nerd. >> God, let's go. Dude, he said Elder Scrolls. I feel like Call of Duty is much more every man. >> It's more like it's it's more the way that you described it. You're like the loadouts have to be this way. Okay. Like >> a show of hands who's played Call of Duty. >> I have. Okay, there we go. >> You got me. But I'm like the the filter by which you had to communicate this was through Call of Duty. >> Yeah, dude. That's the only thing I >> love you for it. >> And you're right that that is the key. It's the through line. Can the narrator, the person who is going to keep the story going the way that it's supposed

13:05to, make sure that it doesn't deviate or if it does deviate, it's going to be a surprise in a good way, not a why did we do that? It's not going to be in a season seven of Game of Thrones where all of a sudden you're like >> none of this makes sense. This is all wrong. Yeah, I mean I think that there's there's a major correlation between deviation from story that you see like with Hollywood or in a book um and what happens with brands where it's like you if you deviate from who people expect you to be or in a way that is disappointing then they will never forgive you for it >> and it will burn burn like no forest fire you've ever seen. >> Yeah. I I have two followup questions for Zach. um kind of unrelated but maybe

13:54related more related than I think one is um like what what are the practical bits of stewarding brand in creative direction uh like how would that show up for a SAS founder for example or just anyone who's working in a SAS business and that's kind of like part two of my question is >> who is the de facto creative director um do you need a creative director or can you be a creative director as the CEO or CMO or CTO or >> C you know chief design officer >> CPO or anything like that CPO so on and so forth. >> Okay so first question is what goes into it. I think that their job is to first just assess the story cuz no founder like seldom do they think about the story in the context of how it relates

14:47to their users and then the totality of their journey. Like are you planning on acquiring other companies? If so, how do they relate to your brand portfolio and your architecture? Do they tell help tell the story better? Do they add to it? Or are they a really like a substantial departure? because we need to think about that like and I could create and direct those things too, but should they be different movies like or just different um different like tangential stories that don't really connect in a specific way? So, their job is to set up the systems in place like the foundational elements, give us the Lego pieces to work with as far as voice and tone. Give us the identity that we can work with and flex. Let us know when

15:28it's okay to flex. Let us know when we're off the rails. Uh that's not necessarily something that I think that you can create like you can create style guides for them, but style guides in my opinion become they're a little bit harder to follow simply because there's so many different mediums that you have to approach and things change. You know, like >> a style guide that was made 10 years ago is not going to be as relevant anymore because the media landscape has just changed. So I think it's their job to communicate what that story is and then to know and tell people no you're deviating from the story. Um so nuts and or bits and pieces it's laying the foundational pieces around visuals around voice and then making sure that

16:12those are implemented in a tasteful way that honors the brand and makes it engaging. Is that sufficient or have I left any holes? >> Insufficient. No. Um, yeah, I think mostly sufficient, but I think um, for example, let's just take me for example. I'm working on a a SAS product, right? Um, and I'm putting together a website. Um, I'm going to have to like come up with not only just like, you know, the typography and the kind of color scheme and color palette, but also like the graphics and is it more like whimsical or is it more serious? isn't like does it look very futuristic? Those are the types of things right you're thinking of and then how that translates to the product use of animations

17:03um trying to think like what are all the things that you might have to account for I or I don't know if that's relevant but >> no well I think it is I mean anything that this is the great part about creative direction is I don't think there's anything that doesn't touch >> like >> there between marketing what is marketing it's words and visuals primarily All of that has to at least be directionally aligned with the emotional value that you're bringing. Something like a hey, you forgot your password email. Are you going to spend a lot of time on that creatively? You could if you have the time and capacity and it'd be really nice to have something fun to circumvent a or at least to pair with a

17:47annoying thing like I forgot my password, but you're probably not going to. Uh, but essentially anything that you can put your eyes on or that your ears interact with. Even smells like depending on if you have an office like well what like what kind of aromomas do you have? What kind of music are you playing? If you want to have like a through and through brand like all of that is going to get touched because it's all part of telling the story like it's the setting um for for all of it. So it will touch the product. It will touch marketing. It will touch sales. It will touch nuts or nuts and bolts of retention emails and your series and your social posts and your ads. And I mean there's just nothing it doesn't

18:27touch your packaging. If it's a I imagine if you had to actually download a software or like install it way we used to it would touch the packaging as well. >> It seems like Sorry, did you have something? Did I cut your >> I was just gonna I was just going to answer part two of Corey's question, which is who is then responsible for it if like comes into play, but you can ask your question first because I I don't want you to forget it. >> My thought is this. It seems like a really big lift to convince tech founders that their creative director hire is more important than their CTO or you know the head of product like that that the creative director is more important than or that that person is

19:17going to play a more foundational role than the person in charge of like the product for example. like it that to me seems like a big ask. They'll probably be like it doesn't matter if the product sucks so that product has like that person's definitely more important. Uh that's what my brain goes to. Do you think that people think that way? Does it like we need to convince them like where do you stand on it? >> Well, that's not the the question. The question is it's that creative direction is the moat. It's the final thing that is going to make your brand different from everybody else. Because the problem with all the AI stuff, particularly in the realm of like a technical founder, is that that is going to become way more

20:03commoditized than a creative director. like the pe the amount of people now who are going to know how to code or like get to the point where they could help ship a product even if they're a prompt engineer or really good at using AI developer tools that is programmatic stuff where you have it it's what's the phrase that you use Corey deterministic >> deterministic >> yeah it's deterministic where you should have very clear outputs for very clear inputs at least as far as functionality goes, having all that work together and then making it beautiful on top of that. I think that that would fall under the role like that's something a creative director would handle. Uh, and that's just harder to find like someone who has

20:52taste but then also a sense of business strategy like and can marry those two together. I think that's going to become rare especially because well even with like just attention deficits in the newer generations who are going to be dependent on all this AI stuff. It's like well where's the person who doesn't just throw in prompts willy-nilly and like pretend like they're going to create like just create a hodgepodge of random stuff that doesn't cohhere. >> You need somebody who's able to refine and cohhere everything. >> Okay. because that was my I guess my followup is like the the person that we're describing as like the ideal creative director is a rare person like you for example there aren't that many

21:42creative people that are like you like you have a ton of well just you have a ton of creative ability but you are incredibly administrative you are very businesssavvy you're focused on like the um like okay you know you have your lane but you like you care about the other lanes. How are the other lanes like performing and working? I know a lot of creative people. Not very many of them are like you. I think I have maybe one or two more friends who are incredibly creative but also like very administrative. Out of you know if I know like 50 creative people maybe three of them are the way you are. So how like this seems like a rare person to find which I think is probably the biggest issue in the discussion.

22:29>> Yeah. >> How do people find those people? >> Good luck. >> How do you become more that person? >> Oh, that's a that's even better question. >> How do you become more that person? >> How do you how'd you do it? Uh well I um I guess this could tie into Corey's question of who would it then be a deacto to. >> Well I think it comes down to it's a learned skill taste. Um and I feel like you get it by just a lot of trial and error. There's this video from Ira Glass who is a the podcast host of This American Life. It's called The Gap. And I think Corey, you've seen it.

23:17>> Mhm. >> Yeah. Once or twice. >> So, the whole premise of The Gap is that there's you can identify like what is really good work. Like your taste, like your taste is killer. That's the thing that gets you into the game, but you know that you're not there yet. like you can tell that there's a difference between your work and your output and the output that you want to be at. And the only way to get through that gap is to just do a [ __ ] ton of work like and practice, you know? And that might be something that's like just endless prompting until you get it to the point where it's like, oh, now I understand what go what I need to say to go into this and to do so in an effect in an effective way. Um, it's like it's easier

24:05for someone who comes from the design realm, I think, because there's more like art history involved and technical terminology for making things look the way you want them to. Uh, or like when I talk to a web team, I can say things like, "No, no, the padding isn't right on this," or, "This should be an absolute position. This should be a flexbox, this like I have that technical terminology to communicate things and help change and alter them. Um, but it is a learned skill and the key thing is you just have to understand that maybe you're not as good as you want to be now, but if you can point out what is really good work and then point out why it's better, that's what the difference is. The last thing, which I

24:48think is more of a personal um a personal take is appreciation for story, which I think is highly underrated and undervalued. If you are somebody who sits through a garbage movie for the full two hours and doesn't like want to claw your eyes out by the end of it and think, "My god, why did I just waste so much time doing this? I never want to do it again." Like I did where I took a vow and said, "I'm never going to watch anything that doesn't capture my attention after 15 minutes. I'm just going to turn it off because it's a waste of time." Having that kind of reverence for a story is really important because then you will understand and appreciate the biggest thing for humanity which is telling

25:31stories and then you'll be able to understand what makes a good story, what makes a bad story and that story and knowledge of how to work it is what's going to make you a really good creative director. >> Put it on a poster, dude. Okay, the very last question is what made what movie made you make that vow? Um, it was Kong versus Godzilla, the new one. >> Interesting. >> Come on. This the story of our time. What are you talking about? I'm just kidding. It >> was horrible. It was so >> So, here's here's why. The the last movie that I saw before COVID was 1917, the World War I movie, which is absolutely fantastic. Blow away. >> Cinemat cinematically, the story is fantastic. just through and through a

26:18fantastic movie and then CO hits and I don't go see movies for like a year actually in the theaters. So, um like summer 2021 rolls around and I'm like, dude, I'm just I'm freaking itching to I want to go watch I want to go eat popcorn and watch a movie all the way through. >> And so, nothing really good was out of the time. a couple buddies of mine went to go see Kong versus Godzilla and like a half an hour in I was like this kind of sucks. It's not a good movie. And then we we get to I'm I'm waiting for it to get better and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and I I'm still waiting cuz it never got better. Um, and then I realized when we got when we got out of the theater, it's like I just

27:05spent 2 hours, 2 and 1/2 hours watching a horrible, horrible movie and I feel really bad about it. So, I'm never going to do that again. Uh, >> I tell you, I have walked out of movie theaters and stopped movies. Like, my wife and I went to go see Napoleon, the movie, >> the Ridley Scott movie with Walkin Phoenix, and we walked out. It's like, this isn't good. It's got a bad story. And >> I haven't seen it. >> Horrible dialogue. It's a If you're trying to compare it to Gladiator, don't because you'll be very disappointed. >> No, not even. Yeah, not even close at all. There's one one fond of flot is I I just thought that there was a maybe an interesting connection and parallel to Hollywood because

27:55feels like the last like 10 to 15 years people have really lost the excitement of a lot of movies and um they're really visually flashy but like you said they're missing the story element and I wonder if a lot of that was kind of tied to the breakthroughs in CGI and just being able to use, >> you know, computerenerated graphics and and effects in movies >> and then that sort of like took the show, you know, we had movies like Transformers where it was sort of like mind-blowing the first time that you saw it and then everyone starts to like overemphasize just the use of effects and sort of making every movie into an action movie. >> Mhm. And I wonder if AI has a similar kind of life cycle where it'll be like,

28:44"Oh, now I can make all these things or like all these things can be generated quickly and like decently well, but then people start to feel burned over time because they're like, but this doesn't really work that well. This isn't really a good product. This doesn't really >> I don't connect with it because the story isn't there." >> Yeah. Really have a affinity for this product. or music too, you know, music kind of went through this is going through the same kind of cycle where there's a overp production I think would be the >> the best way of characterizing it and lack of taste. So, it's it's a a bad combo of the ability to out like your output is just a lot more voluous, but the taste and care isn't. So,

29:28>> yeah, >> that's unfortunate. I mean, the best movie ever, or according to IMDb, at least last time I checked, is still The Shaw Shank Redemption, which >> is like zero special effects whatsoever. Phenomenal story. >> Wonder if there is any. I'm like, is there any special effects in that movie? I don't think so. Be funny if we >> unless unless you unless not not CGI. >> Mhm. >> Right. Right. Yeah. Just like practical. >> No, there's zero CGI in that movie. >> I that I will bet on that. But there's serious CGI in that movie. >> I got to watch it. I'll be like glued to the movie. I love that movie. >> Or like or there's things like Jurassic Park where there's a limited amount of CGI. And I think that's like, you know,

30:10you hit that uh like the perfect medium of like we're going to use CGI but do it very very sparingly and focus on the story. Lord of the Rings is another really good example, particularly the uh like just the main trilogy. And you look at that compared to The Hobbit. The Hobbit has [ __ ] tons of CGI and way too much. >> It's it doesn't hold up. Like the the Urukai in Fellowship of the Ring are way more intimidating than any CGI work. >> Like hands down. >> I can't watch the whole of it. >> And I'm sure it was annoying like having to get into makeup and do all that stuff, but it made like it kept the story alive. like it it made the story worth it.

30:56>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. We could probably talk for a lot longer about this, but anyway, uh we're gonna wrap it up. Appreciate you guys. Great discussion. Very interesting. And uh we will see you all on the next one. Bye-bye.